tricky....?

Some fun for the hard working botanists and green fingered. A sort of posting Quiz and educative posts. N-Joi...

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wolf
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tricky....?

Post by wolf » Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:52 pm

I will pay a beer thursday for right answer ( wrong answer you pay my beer - get it pine ?! )

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Post by MWP admin » Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:30 pm

From a photographer point of view, it is an excellent composed photo. Congratulations

On first fire without even a research the tuft of stamen could mean Ranunculaceae, Cistacea or Rosaceae the most common.
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Post by wolf » Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:32 pm

close call - no telling who pays the beer yet

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:)

Post by IL-PINE » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:41 pm

I will reply with the following pic hehe :P
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Post by wolf » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:49 am

Pine - I hate being out-tricked but I will hazard your pic is cistus monspeliensis even though you show no leaves - right ?

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:P

Post by IL-PINE » Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:15 pm

Indeed indeed :P

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Post by wolf » Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:20 pm

So I am right Pine ?
But you still have not put in your guess to my pic ...... I think someone does not want to pay me a beer here !

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Post by IL-PINE » Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:01 am

Well the leaves look like those of Cistus creticus while it has a white flower. Seems to be quite interesting!

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Post by jackpot » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:31 am

is it a man-made----: both Cistus species in 1 picture?

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Post by jackpot » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:32 am

he he, --- is a botanical term, crossing to species, ok, we may call it mutation...

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Post by wolf » Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:13 pm

well guys I shot this in selmun....so what is it ?
( I am counting on two free beers now !! )

ps...what was MWP saying about nice weather on public holidays ??
get a new crystalball MWP !!

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Post by MWP admin » Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:30 pm

Wolf, you missed a part of my saying - nice weather on public holidays attributed to a saints and Biblical figures (except Saint Paul's to keep with his tradition of shipwreck).

Next 100% sunny day 19th March - a MWP activity hopefully.

It was interesting to read this post. The mutation thing makes sense, though I read that it hardly happens in nature ; so could it be that this Cistus is a man-made example?? Wolf, did you shot it from some garden or residential area or in the middle of nowhere (countryside)

Once I also met a plant what I believed to be either a new subspecies or hybrid. It was like a mix of Antirrhinum siculum and A. tortuosum. I was absorbed by it so much that I send seeds to the Plank institue in Germany (forget the exact name - check the profile) to a certain professor Strueber. I wonder if Weber and the german guys on this forum knows him? They cultivated the seeds and all plants turned out to be a normal purple-coloured A. tortuosum.

Confusing but I concluded that it may be a case where the plant was growing in an area with lack of nutrients and so did not produced the purple pigment well.

You can see photos in the A. tortuosum profile photo gallery.
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Post by jackpot » Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:42 pm

with man-made-mutation I mean wolf-made-mutation- he cutted out the flower from a Cistus monspeliensis picture and moved it to a picture of Cistus creticus (from Selmun) via Adobe Photoshop...Right Wolf? 1 beer for me and 1 beer for Admini (cause I have to give him one). :lol:

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Post by MWP admin » Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:29 pm

I am an expert in this, and although it could be, I DONT think so because the shadow is perfectely aligned (that is shadow of leaves vs shadow of stamen is at same angle), unless wolf is an expert too and have calculated this in his mastery. However would wolf waste time on such a thing ?!

On the other hand, the flower seems to be a bit too much solitary and over sharpened (that makes it look as if to be of plastic ) but maybe he just sharpened the flower perimeter. Also some cameras produce oversharpened images.


Conclusion
Jack-pot: I dont think so with a confident level of 90% !!!
Wolf: If its true (10%) I dont like these to happen on the forum (at least often)
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Post by wolf » Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:28 pm

OK here is the correct answer - first of all there is no photoshop manipulation except the usual sharpening and autocontrast. Now guys I was very intrigued when I shot this and asked an EXPERT (and I mean EXPERT ) and I am reliably told it is cistus crteicus ok but an ALBINO one. I am also told albinism occurs in all coloured flora except yellow ( if I remember correctly )
Neither MWP nor Jack mentioned this word Albino - Pine on the other hand was circumspect and non-committal
I think this wins me two beers though I suppose I should sue for damages about harming my integrity and reputation :D
MWP - thanks for only thinking 10% I am a fraud !!!

this has brightened a rather dull day ...Jack its been raining for twelve hours non-stop

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Tricky indeed

Post by MWP admin » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:13 pm

Yes, it was tricky and I am not aquianted with this family I admit. I think I should make a list of beer awards becasue we will loose the count. AFAIK I have a beer from jack, but I have not contributed bad answers to this quiz (I played "Pass" Card) so no beers from me!

Is this true that yellows dont go albino ? The forum is always educative.

You got those 10% mostly for the obvious sharpening hence an element of accepted manipulation. Maybe jackpot was a bit tricked becasue the flower looks alone (with a dark border around it and no supporting branch) and came to his hypothesis.

Yes a typical German day :evil: :lol:


PS to add some more info here is a link for Cistus creticus
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Post by MWP admin » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:21 pm

WOW WolF!

I solved your case I think.

I read the link above and there is reported species which would fit perfectely your flower!!!

Quoting the site: " C. creticus forma albus ( white flowers ) "

What do you think ? Not convinced, here is more proof:

Look also at this, it confirms everything: It says a hybrid which forms an albino. [--=Link=--]


It seems that the white form is formed by a hybrid

PS: So afterall, I might be right when I said a man made hybridization and perhaps elicts me for half a glass of beer :-)
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Post by wolf » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:24 pm

ok you played pass card mwp but jack owes the beer !!!
looking at pic again i realize you and jack cud think i manipulated but really as you said i have no time for this
i honestly enjoy learning a bit from this forum and perhaps jack or weber ( where is weber ...or has he metamorphosed into jack ??? )
can shed some light on albinism and its occurrence

btw i also have pics of white lesser centaury ( usually pink of course ) which i also assume are albinos ...only one plant in a group shot last june at fomm ir-rih ......and MWP you forgot I once ( very long ago ) asked you about a white crocus longiflorus i had found ...at that tme i believe you mentioned albinism as a possibility

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Post by wolf » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:50 pm

mwp - i am intrigued by your answer
do hydbrids and crossbreeds occur in nature ( i assume answer is yes )
but hybrid of cistus creticus with what ???
i think we need the foreign consultants here !!

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Post by IL-PINE » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:33 pm

heh I still have to give you a beer, sir Wolf (not on this one). I did not commit myself but at first I was fooled by the white flower. It is interesting to find that albino plant once in a while. The plant I placed for quiz is also strange - G. rotundifolium is usually depicted as having pink flowers, yet I found white flowerer plants in Wied il-Ghasel. The Cistus might have been a hybrid, but as wolf said with what?
I never thought you manipulated the photograph wolf! Why bother!

It finally stopped raining! :x

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Cistus creticus forma albus

Post by MWP admin » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:52 am

I think it is just a form of C. creticus and hence the name given:
Cistus creticus forma albus

Some botanist arrived to this problem time ago and decided to give it the "forma albus" suffix which in plain english means White {flower} form of Cistus creticus.

If it have originated from a natural hybrid or it is a 'genetic defect' causing albinoism of C. creticus we don't know. Another consideration is that seeds may have come from a hybrid plant abroad and introduced on our islands by humans (via cultivars) or birds ( via faeces as I think berries are often eaten by birds).

What's important at this stage is that we have the plant's exact name - C. creticus forma albus.

Not much more info on the net but I am stil lsearching.


Hybrids are rare in nature (and impossible for many species but not cistus) but also albinosism is somehow rare.
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More info....

Post by MWP admin » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:01 pm

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jardin-sec/catalogue_C.htm

Above link give detailed information about hybrids and forms of Cistus in general. Bad news is that they are in Frecnh.

One of them is Cistus creticus var. creticus forma albus and similar to your flower photo.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jardin-sec/Page ... 0albus.htm
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Post by jackpot » Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:07 pm

oh boy- Cistus, Hybrids and Albinos, three topics which need to be discussed each for hours... (not tonight) :roll:

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Post by jackpot » Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:03 am

Stephen, I think you are right with
Cistus creticus var. creticus f. albus! Wolf: Is the site where you found it at Selmun close to the site of the pink Cistus?

Now:
1. what is a hybrid: a hybrid is the product of e.g. gardeners crossing between 2 organisms (varieties, species or even genus- e.g. very popular in orchids). A natural hybrid: look out of the window- each plant you can recognize represents a natural hybrid, most of them are established in their genetic codes, and we give them a name and order them into the range of a species, subspecies or whatever. This is evolution, but man place the organisms together into taxa...
2. Albino: right, yellow albinos are rare (but possible). As far as I remember I have never seen trees and woody shrubs as albinos. Usually, annuals, biennials or herbaceous perennials.

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Post by wolf » Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:11 pm

yes jack it was slap bang in the middle of pink cistus in the area known as ras il-griebeg ....so I guess it is albino rather than hybrid
right ?
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More theories and food for the mind about albinism.

Post by MWP admin » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:58 pm

The fundamental principles involved in albinism are fairly well understood. It is believed that sudden changes may take place in the form or color of an organism through some change in a definite unit of the reproductive material from which it originated. (DeVries mutation theory) Thus an abnormality in the germ-plasm of the parents results in abnormality of the offspring. In plants, such things as albinism, multiple rows of petals, seedlessness, thornlessness, etc., may be explained in that manner. Since these mutations were shown to reproduce themselves or "breed true", DeVries felt that this was proof that they originated in abnormalities of the germ-plasm of the parents. Thus, assuming a germinal change, an albino plant might be expected to reproduce this character as long as it was either self-fertilized or cross-fertilized with another albino evolved in a similar manner. This may be considered as an explanation for some of the albino flowers found in Mount Rainier National Park. Of course a perennial albino plant develops white flowers year after year throughout its life.



Schmoe, in reporting the albino red heather, states that only the blossoms upon one branch of the plant were white. This is known as a "sport". Such a character is not brought about by an abnormality of the germ-plasm of the parents. It had its origin in the body tissues of the plant during its growth. Such "sports" may be perpetuated only by means of vegetative propogation of the affected portion of the plant itself which, in the case of the red heather, would probably never occur naturally. An example of this type of mutation is the seedless grapefruit. It was propogated vegetatively by man by grafting portions of the original "sport" upon normal grapefruit stocks.

Many plants are not normally self-fertilized or "selfed". In the majority of cases cross-pollinization is the rule. The offspring of such unions contain the characteristics of both parents together with those of their ancestors. Many of these characteristics are not evident in the offspring - are subdued or are "recessive". Those that are evident are known as "dominant". If the pollen produced by a blossom of normal color is carried to the pistil of an albino (developed through a mutation in a single factor of the germ-plasm) the seeds produced would contain both the element for albinism and normal color in equal proportions or "dosages". However plants grown from this seed would all be normally colored because the character for color is dominant. Now if these normally colored blossoms, just described, are self-fertilized the seeds re sulting from such a union would produce some albino plants and some normally colored ones; the ration being three normal to one albino. This is known as segregation.




It is quite evident that the matter of albinism is by no means simple. Evidence to the effect that not all albinos are caused through strict mutations, but in many cases through crossing of mutants with normal blossoms is found in what might be termed "dilutants" - intermediate stages between the normally colored blossom and the albino due to incomplete dominance of the normal color. Examples of this have been especially noticeable in the lupine, individuals having been found representing almost the entire color range from pale pink to deep violet. In addition Blue Gentians of an old rose shade have been noted in close proximity to plants with albino blossoms. The presences of such variants has not been definitely linked with the albinos in so far as the flowers of Mt. Rainier are concerned. To establish their origin definitely will require considerable further study.

The observed albinos, then, may be classed as to their immediate origin. The majority develop through a sudden mutation brought about by an alteration in the germ-plasm of the parent, or through segregation following cross-pollinization in which a mutant is one parent.
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Post by jackpot » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:14 am

applaus, MWP-
Wolf I am not sure, I would prefer to name this shrub as a variety (see comment before).

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